On Discernment: An Interview with Veronica Bates Kassatly
The steady work of seeing clearly
In our current world, when information arrives not as knowledge but as weather: sudden, changeable and without memory, how do we draw the line between illusion and substance? This month we’re featuring an interview with the anti-greenwashing expert, Veronica Bates Kassatly, whose honesty and sharpness on the subject are a breath of fresh air. Her voice carries weight—measured but refreshingly unwilling to fall in step with the culture of hype and performative cool. She calls things by their true names, and that, these days, feels radical.
Fashion, as we know it, has always traded in appearance. Since its inception as a mainstream pursuit, it has lived inside the architecture of appearances—mirrors polished by desire, smoke conjured by marketing. Sales are its pulse, and where sales lead, language follows: toward longing, toward aspiration, towards whatever promise will move the needle.
When a decision is made within minutes, or seconds—a purchase slung-shot perfectly from an Instagram ad, traveling through a sales funnel and arriving without friction at Apple Pay—we simply cannot discern whether said purchase is, in fact, carbon neutral. When “news” spreads like wildfire across Instagram stories, many don’t take the time to verify or even read the story before clicking reshare. The same fragmentation touches everything. Thought, image, story—all broken off from place, history and source. The answer, I believe, lies in depth and duration. We need time to make up our minds, time to research, time to read, discuss and think.
It’s the difference between taking a visual reference from a book versus from Pinterest or Instagram. In a book, there is a rich context, a world that the reference lives in, that we can explore and follow trails to understand a story. On Pinterest, there is often a lack of any kind of contextual information. The image is floating in a (beautiful) sea of aesthetics. We lose the depth of storytelling, of understanding; the who, where, why and when behind the image.
This isn’t to say we must reject the tools of our time. But if we want to see clearly—if we want to trace the thread back to substance—we must remember to ask more of them. We must practice returning, re-rooting, reading not just what is offered, but what is hidden beneath.
In that spirit, we’d love to invite you to root yourselves and spend a little time with us.
At the beginning of July (exact date tbc), we’ll be hosting our very first Substack Live to mark the release of our new print edition. It will be a moment to gather and go beneath the surface together — to share stories, insights, and the thinking behind the issue.
We’ll share the full details in our next newsletter, but we wanted you to be the first to know. We hope you’ll join us.
Three Things We’re Loving:
In the spirit of discernment, this book, edited by Umberto Eco, takes a critical look at what defines beauty. Rooted in historical analysis, it parses out concepts and definitions of art, taste, and fashion; ultimately reminding us that it is not a fixed notion, but one changeable and tied to socio-political movements through the ages.
In a moment when marketing speaks the language of transformation—promising purity, authenticity, and ethical superiority—the Conspirituality Podcast offers a lucid, often unsettling examination of what lies beneath. Conspirituality sharpens critical thinking. It reveals how easily the aesthetics of care—natural materials, ritual, handmade beauty—can be co-opted by narratives that look ethical but are rooted in disinformation, anti-intellectualism, or commodified virtue.
Visually rich, culturally literate, and always thoughtfully styled. She analyzes fashion, film, and identity through a feminist lens. Mina’s videos are well-researched, and often autobiographical, reminding viewers that style is not just what we wear, but how we come to understand ourselves in the world.
Exposing Fashion’s Great Greenwashing Machine
An interview with fashion anti-greenwashing expert Veronica Bates Kassatly
(first published in The Book of Kin No.2)
Words and interview by Becca Warner
“None of the fashion industry’s sustainability claims have been informed by any leading academics, nor have they been subject to any independent oversight,” writes Veronica Bates Kassatly in the preface to her blistering report The Great Green Washing Machine, Part 2. “Neither the methodology nor the underlying data is transparently provided, and none of it is open source. The outcome is that, as we shall demonstrate in this paper, many of the claims are false.”
Veronica is in the business of finding truths, and exposing falsities. She describes herself as an analyst, but it strikes me that her work takes her well into the realm of activism. Her early career was spent working as an economist for the Overseas Development Institute and the World Bank. But she came into contact with the fashion industry when, with her son, she set up her own small (“diminutive, minuscule,” she says) clothing brand in Berlin. Eager as ever to understand the what and the how behind the materials she was using, she soon discovered the mess of data that is by turns amplified or ignored by the fashion industry.
Combining her eagle eye for detail, a palpable contempt for nonsense stats, and an instinct to question claims that don’t stack up, Veronica has undertaken some of the most impactful sustainability analysis that the fashion industry has seen. Her report The Great Green Washing Machine, Part 2 played an important part in exposing the Higg Index – the fashion industry’s most utilized sustainability rating system – for greenwashing problematic synthetic materials. Her vocal criticisms have the power to shape how the industry talks about its “green” credentials – and she’s got a lot to say.
I spoke to Veronica about her ongoing battle to bring fashion industry data into the light, about the myths and misunderstandings that surround the materials we wear, and what a better world for fashion could really look like.
Becca: How does it feel to have become a controversial figure in the fashion industry?
Veronica: I don’t see myself as controversial, I’m a little person sitting at a table. A lot of this work has been done pro bono – I was just so shocked at what was going on. I think it’s partly because in my private life I’ve found myself in a position where I wasn’t able to do anything about people lying, and I was really very annoyed. I thought, well, I could never do anything about these. But this [fashion industry data] I can do something about. I’m an analyst by training. I know I’m good at it. I will go through this [data] and I will try to make people pay attention.
It’s quite amusing, because the Norwegian consumer authority ruled that the Higg MSI could not be used to make consumer-facing declarations – and they wrote this based on The Great Green Washing Machine, Part 2, and I have all the documentation saying this. But when they wanted to make the official ruling, the sustainable apparel coalition was desperate that they should not mention my name and they should not mention my report.
Becca: The fashion industry often seems to be the biggest perpetrator of greenwashing, compared to other industries. Is this your perception? Why do you think that is?
Veronica: I think one of the things that makes fashion very different from other industries is that if you’re selling cement, you probably make the cement; if you’re selling the food, you grow the food. So you actually have all the primary data, and there’s not a huge scope for you to pretend things are different. Whereas if you’re a fashion brand, you probably make none of it. Most of the big brands don’t even know which country most of their material came from – not even which country! – let alone which factory, or where the factory got the fibre from. So it gives them great scope to to start saying “we saved some emissions here, so much water there”, and start playing around with the LCAs [life cycle assessments] they use and the databases they use and comparisons they make.
Becca: Your reports make clear that the question of “good” and “bad” fibres is complex, but is there a clear “no-go” fibre for people who want to buy sustainably?
Veronica: You can’t buy polyester, or any plastic, unless it’s essential for the purpose. Like I have a polyester waterproof jacket – at the moment, there are no easily available alternatives. So if you want to shop sustainably don’t buy plastic unless it can’t be made another way. Buying a plastic Boohoo dress that looks like cotton, that’s a real no-no.
And you know, almost all European wool is landfilled, and roughly 5.5 million hides are landfilled every year in the US alone. There’s a lot of resources already sitting there that nobody is using. And it would be really very helpful if we used them instead of rushing off and making mushroom leather and all the other stuff. If you can replace plastic, there’s a place for you. If all you’re going to do is replace something that’s already available, like leather, then you’re not really doing anything terribly good for the world.
Becca: What do you see as the role for fashion media in all this? What needs to change?
Veronica: Sustainability is science. It’s physical science, it’s economic science, it’s climate science. And I really think that if the press want to write about sustainability in fashion, they need to get their science journalists to do it – rather than fashion journalists, who obviously have come from a very different background, and will be able to tell us everything we need to know about the fun side of fashion, the happy side of fashion, but they don’t know anything about sustainability. Well, we assume they don’t, because otherwise they would have said something sooner.
Becca: This is such a complex topic, and there are lots of different factors when choosing a “sustainable” option. How can brands most helpfully communicate with customers?
Veronica: I’m not a fan of them being told all this stuff, because I don’t think it’s helpful. You can have two items of clothing, and one can have a much higher production impact than the other, but if you’re going to wear it three times as many times then it will end up being the most sustainable option – because you won’t go on buying anything else, you’ll keep wearing that. And so the impact per wear keeps falling. This is the most important thing consumers need to think about when they look at an item. I think there should be a warning sign, saying “this item is potentially harmful to the environment. Do you really need it? How many times will you wear it? Do you love it? If not, please put it back on the rack.”
Becca: What’s the world you want to see for fashion? What might an alternative system look like?
Veronica: On average, we have far too many clothes in the Global North. If we bought fewer of them, we could still have the creativity, the beauty, the joy. Everyone says, “if we make less that means fewer jobs for factory workers”, which is true. But they don’t want five jobs paying a fifth of the living wage. They want one that pays a living wage, so the other four people in the family can either stay in school, or go and do something else. That’s how economic development occurs – when you’ve got someone earning a bunch of money that lots of other people pop up to serve, like hairdressers and restaurants. There’s a whole bunch of opportunities that suddenly open up for all the other people who are no longer sweating in these odious factories. And that’s literally how development works.
Discover more about Veronica Bates Kassatly’s work and read her reports The Great Green Washing Machine, Part 1 and Part 2 at www.veronicabateskassatly.com.
THE BOOK OF KIN presents:
A summer space by Magata
Magata is opening a one-month long summer pop-up in Berlin this June. You’re invited to explore the latest edition: sculptural objects for body and space.
Handmade in Berlin in limited edition from up-cycled and natural materials — each piece explores form, movement and textural memory.
03.06–28.06
Daily, 12:00–18:00
Opening gathering: 07.06, 12:00–18.00
Solmsstraße 41, 10961, Berlin
www.magata.co
Our next print edition is just around the corner …
… arriving in late June—and we’re looking forward to celebrating its release with you. More details to come soon.
In the meantime, here’s a little glimpse behind the scenes of one of our photo productions for the next issue—we had some adorable, unexpected visitors.
Much love and see you next month,
Liz and The Lissome team xx
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